Re: An Impassioned Plea from a VTiger Integrator

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Re: An Impassioned Plea from a VTiger Integrator

Dennis Grant
> v4.x would not be abandoned while there is people interested in
> maintaining it, that's all needed in open source, interested and
> executive people...
> it can be mantained forever while this condition is met...

Yeah, but is it worth it?

The 4.x codebase is really - sorry guys, I don't mean to take shots at
you - but let's face it; it's really very nasty.

Some of it is a good deal better than others... but there are three or
four different coding paradigms all mixed together just on database
queries alone, never mind display models and modularity and whatnot.

It *works* great, but it's a serious bitch to maintain.

As I mentioned earlier, I haven't looked at the 5.0 codebase, but it is
my hope and expectation that it is a lot better.
 
> and I agree with you that there was (is ?) an utterly lack of
> receptive response to community developers from the core team,

No kidding....

> and the
> project was crying for a fork, but all those people creating private
> forks also lacked the balls to create a serious *public* fork...

> I mean, if you are going to fork, then fork in all it's glory...

Dude, I *NEVER* wanted to fork. I'd be *MUCH, MUCH* happier if I could
run a vanilla install of VTiger with zero custom code in it.

I was forced into forking by a lack of response from the core dev team,
yes - but more so by the fact that I had users who wanted features and I
needed to get them done NOW.

> those people that never submitted a patch, never figthed for more open
> development, created their own private branch, and then came up here
> whining, are ... well, whiners IMO

Ahem.

I tried to get patches into the core. I tried to get the dev team to do
stuff by reporting bugs and providing detailed debug info. But there are
limits as to how much time in a day I can burn trying to get an
unresponsive dev team to fix my bug.

"Why is this still broken?"

"Well, I reported it to VTiger last month, and they haven't fixed it
yet....."

That just doesn't cut it.

> My point was that we should find
> a way to welcome these wayward forks back to the fold.  How?  I
dunno..

Well, the way I'm going to do it is to roll all my features into 5.0
(which is a huge job, but so it goes) and then cut a patch set for
merging into the main core. My expectation is that VTiger's version of
Linus (or Alan Cox, or whoever) will then go through the patch set, and
then either merge or reject patches based on merit - just like in the
kernel.

I will then work on trying to address concerns with my rejected patches,
so as to get them accepted, except in cases where the patch is clearly
local in scope - and those I will maintain myself.

BTW, who is the local Linus?

> So after the wind clears.. my point really comes down to getting all
> these folks who are working on private forks to come back to the
> community project, regardless of their justification (or lack of) for
> the fork. In an OSS project your most valuable resource is your
> developers and if we can find a way to get them back it will be well
> worth it IMHO.

I agree - and the best way to do that is to be RESPONSIVE.

I understand that *my* problem may not be the top priority.

I understand that core dev team members are NOT going to just drop
everything and look after me.

But I *do* expect a response, and to get into the pipeline, and to be
given reasonably regular status updates on the status of my problem.

And if I submit a patch, I expect it to be reviewed and either accepted
or rejected in a reasonable timeframe.

I don't know how many of you were/are involved in Linux kernel
development, but I used to get help from people like Alan Cox and Linus
on a regular basis. If a particular bit of hardware wasn't working, and
it looked like a bug in Linux kernel code, we'd trade emails on a daily
basis to debug the problem. That's the level of service we're talking
about.

And this is a good start:

> Your comments are well taken. These will be in place at the earliest.
> I know that this will be a quick fix but instructions have been sent
> across to have the code properly commented from now on for any future
> development/bug fixes.

Thanks!

DG

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Re: An Impassioned Plea from a VTiger Integrator

Sergio A. Kessler-2
On 7/13/06, Dennis Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > v4.x would not be abandoned while there is people interested in
> > maintaining it, that's all needed in open source, interested and
> > executive people...
> > it can be mantained forever while this condition is met...
>
> Yeah, but is it worth it?

well, up to you  ;-)
(I mean, up to the outside comunity, vtiger core team is heavely focused en V5)

> BTW, who is the local Linus?

unfortunely, there is no local linus,
mike fedyk was doing a terrific job on maintaining v4, but then he dissapeared,
and then Philip and Allan Bush were trying to help, but I imagine they
are in lack of time...

you can be the linus of v4 if you want...
it's a meritocracy (it's that spelled correctly ?)

>
> I agree - and the best way to do that is to be RESPONSIVE.

the problem is there is NO one that can respond about v4,
the core team is working full on v5...
and v4 has no Linus (at least with enough time)...

/sak
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Re: An Impassioned Plea from a VTiger Integrator

Allan Bush
As Sergio said I've kind of taken responsibility for the 4.2 branch
(along with a bunch of help from Jeff and Joel).  Unfortunately I just
don't have as much time to devote to the project as I'd like.

I encourage you to use the trac system as there is just too much noise
in the forums to parse through it all.  If you post a trac ticket with
milestone 4.2.5 I WILL look at it and if you attach a patch
(preferably against the latest 4.2 svn code) I WILL review it and
check it in or leave a comment of why it didn't get checked in.

For my part the lack of feedback from other developers/users has been
somewhat discouraging.  For example after the 4.2.4 release a couple
bugs where discovered so I planned a quick 4.2.4.1 release but I
wasn't able to find anyone to test it and I didn't have the time
myself so that's still sitting on the back burner.

This week I'm partly on vacation and don't have the time to deal with
non critical stuff but I'm setting aside some time early next week to
review any new tickets and get 4.2.5 back on track.  I've committed to
that release, but afterwards unless I see a lot more community support
that will probably be the end of the 4.2 line.

Allan

On 7/13/06, Sergio A. Kessler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/13/06, Dennis Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > v4.x would not be abandoned while there is people interested in
> > > maintaining it, that's all needed in open source, interested and
> > > executive people...
> > > it can be mantained forever while this condition is met...
> >
> > Yeah, but is it worth it?
>
> well, up to you  ;-)
> (I mean, up to the outside comunity, vtiger core team is heavely focused en V5)
>
> > BTW, who is the local Linus?
>
> unfortunely, there is no local linus,
> mike fedyk was doing a terrific job on maintaining v4, but then he dissapeared,
> and then Philip and Allan Bush were trying to help, but I imagine they
> are in lack of time...
>
> you can be the linus of v4 if you want...
> it's a meritocracy (it's that spelled correctly ?)
>
> >
> > I agree - and the best way to do that is to be RESPONSIVE.
>
> the problem is there is NO one that can respond about v4,
> the core team is working full on v5...
> and v4 has no Linus (at least with enough time)...
>
> /sak
> _______________________________________________
> Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt
>
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Re: An Impassioned Plea from a VTiger Integrator

Dennis Grant
In reply to this post by Dennis Grant
> > BTW, who is the local Linus?

> unfortunely, there is no local linus,

Who is in charge of V5? Who is the core dev team leader?

> you can be the linus of v4 if you want...
> it's a meritocracy (it's that spelled correctly ?)

Uh... thanks, but I'm going to have to pass. At this point, with V5
(seemingly) approaching completion, V4 is a dead end. I intend to move
forward on V5 and get away from V4 as fast as I can.

DG

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Re: An Impassioned Plea from a VTiger Integrator

Matjaz.Slak
In reply to this post by Sergio A. Kessler-2

Hi!

If there's no one else, I volunteer to be the v4 Linus.


I have the exact same position as a lot of other people wrote about here - basically my own fork of v4.2.3, and I'm now working to get my patches compatible with v4.2.4 so as to get back to the main trunk. And it's a lot of work, which I need to trade with my basic task - which is supporting several customers we have on vTiger. I hope I will have my set of patches (there might be up to 100 of them, as it's looking right now :) ready in a week or so.

I belive we as vTiger Dev team should provide more support for 4.2.x stream -> I guess that almost ALL of vTiger's "real world" users use that right now. And they might go for v5 when it's stable, but that won't be (in my experience) for at least 6 months after it's released.

If you want me, I'm here. Just give me a direction to start in, and I (and my three colleagues here) can be reviewing submitted work in no time. And discussing it with you the team here to get decissions on include/reject.

Matjaz Slak
[hidden email]

Atol d.o.o.  |  http://www.atol.si  |  tel. +386 1 510 15 30



"Sergio A. Kessler" <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]

13.07.2006 17:40

Please respond to
[hidden email]

To
[hidden email]
cc
Subject
Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea from a VTiger        Integrator





On 7/13/06, Dennis Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > v4.x would not be abandoned while there is people interested in
> > maintaining it, that's all needed in open source, interested and
> > executive people...
> > it can be mantained forever while this condition is met...
>
> Yeah, but is it worth it?

well, up to you  ;-)
(I mean, up to the outside comunity, vtiger core team is heavely focused en V5)

> BTW, who is the local Linus?

unfortunely, there is no local linus,
mike fedyk was doing a terrific job on maintaining v4, but then he dissapeared,
and then Philip and Allan Bush were trying to help, but I imagine they
are in lack of time...

you can be the linus of v4 if you want...
it's a meritocracy (it's that spelled correctly ?)

>
> I agree - and the best way to do that is to be RESPONSIVE.

the problem is there is NO one that can respond about v4,
the core team is working full on v5...
and v4 has no Linus (at least with enough time)...

/sak
_______________________________________________
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Re: An Impassioned Plea from a VTiger Integrator

Matjaz.Slak
In reply to this post by Allan Bush

Hi!

Allan, if you need any help, let me know (see my previous post).

Matjaz Slak
[hidden email]

Atol d.o.o.  |  http://www.atol.si  |  tel. +386 1 510 15 30



"Allan Bush" <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]

13.07.2006 17:59

Please respond to
[hidden email]

To
[hidden email]
cc
Subject
Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea from a VTiger        Integrator





As Sergio said I've kind of taken responsibility for the 4.2 branch
(along with a bunch of help from Jeff and Joel).  Unfortunately I just
don't have as much time to devote to the project as I'd like.

I encourage you to use the trac system as there is just too much noise
in the forums to parse through it all.  If you post a trac ticket with
milestone 4.2.5 I WILL look at it and if you attach a patch
(preferably against the latest 4.2 svn code) I WILL review it and
check it in or leave a comment of why it didn't get checked in.

For my part the lack of feedback from other developers/users has been
somewhat discouraging.  For example after the 4.2.4 release a couple
bugs where discovered so I planned a quick 4.2.4.1 release but I
wasn't able to find anyone to test it and I didn't have the time
myself so that's still sitting on the back burner.

This week I'm partly on vacation and don't have the time to deal with
non critical stuff but I'm setting aside some time early next week to
review any new tickets and get 4.2.5 back on track.  I've committed to
that release, but afterwards unless I see a lot more community support
that will probably be the end of the 4.2 line.

Allan

On 7/13/06, Sergio A. Kessler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 7/13/06, Dennis Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > v4.x would not be abandoned while there is people interested in
> > > maintaining it, that's all needed in open source, interested and
> > > executive people...
> > > it can be mantained forever while this condition is met...
> >
> > Yeah, but is it worth it?
>
> well, up to you  ;-)
> (I mean, up to the outside comunity, vtiger core team is heavely focused en V5)
>
> > BTW, who is the local Linus?
>
> unfortunely, there is no local linus,
> mike fedyk was doing a terrific job on maintaining v4, but then he dissapeared,
> and then Philip and Allan Bush were trying to help, but I imagine they
> are in lack of time...
>
> you can be the linus of v4 if you want...
> it's a meritocracy (it's that spelled correctly ?)
>
> >
> > I agree - and the best way to do that is to be RESPONSIVE.
>
> the problem is there is NO one that can respond about v4,
> the core team is working full on v5...
> and v4 has no Linus (at least with enough time)...
>
> /sak
> _______________________________________________
> Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt
>
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Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt


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Re: An Impassioned Plea from a VTiger Integrator

Sergio A. Kessler-2
In reply to this post by Matjaz.Slak
On 7/14/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
>  If there's no one else, I volunteer to be the v4 Linus.

just do it.    ;-)


/sak
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Re: An Impassioned Plea from a VTiger Integrator

Richie-4
Hi Matjaz!
I hope I am addressing you properly if not please forgive me and direct to the proper mode of addressing.

If you are game then great!
Welcome to the club.
Please select your stand-in helper so that at least we have a backup for Linus Matjaz. Let me know and I will grant you the relevant access.

It would be nice if you could briefly state how you plan to address the
disparate contributions. This is just to get an idea as there are lots of data floating around in the code contributions and mailing lists; wanted to know if you have any specific plan. I will be busy with the v5 release and will not be able to help you much so the query.
I was earlier integrating it 1 by 1 till 4.2.3 and we do have a wiki page which reflects the status of the contributions. I am not sure if that is updated till the 4.2.4 release though. http://www.vtiger.com/wiki/index.php/Vtiger_CRM_Code_Contributions


Allan, any tips from you will be nice.

Richie




---- Sergio A. Kessler<[hidden email]> wrote ----

On 7/14/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> If there's no one else, I volunteer to be the v4 Linus.

just do it. ;-)


/sak
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Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt

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Re: An Impassioned Plea from a VTiger Integrator

Matjaz.Slak

Hi Richie and the rest of the team!

You address me correctly, Matjaz is my name :)



As I belive the 4.2.x stream is the current "production" vTiger environment for most of the users, my primary goal would be to focus on:
  • debugging (fixing parts that either don't work at all and/or work incorrectly)
  • improving usability (based on feedback from users)

I would also like to try and get the following not-quite-features, maybe bugs? implemented/fixed:
  • multilanguage support (simply get rid of any and all hard-coded strings)
  • full per user or at least per-system localization support (number format, date format, currency support etc)

These two last items are - in my opinion - somewhere between debugging and new features. vTiger is already supposed to support multiple languages, however this support is not well implemented. The same can be said for localization - vTiger is supposed to be able to support per-user date format, but again there are areas where the implementation is not as good as it could be.

Also, based on my researches into existing vTiger deployments, I see there are a lot of non-english users, but they probably are using forked code, as due to these two issues they cannot use the "official" 4.2.x stream code. I would like to get these users back on the team, and I know they might return only if we provide them with a 100% localisable product. This will enable them to post the patches they make back to the community or at least give them an opportunity to work with us on resolving them.

I would try and keep us on this track, rather than go try implement new features and make large changes to UI - the place for these is v5.


To achieve this, I would first gather any and all contributions currently lying around (in the forum, as provided by other people here etc.) - matching the categories above - and start the process of getting them in the code. I would like to see a show of hands from people that would be prepared to devote some time to debugging/updating tthese contributions - as some might need an update. I know me and my colleagues in our company will.

If all goes well, we could try and implement a regular timeline (say every month) when we would be releasing point versions. If I get at least two or three people to help, I guess we could have our first result (4.2.5 I guess) in two months.

I think there will be people using the 4.2.x stream for at least a year after v5 is released, and that if we as a team show them we are supporting them, than they will upgrade to v5 -> if we don't they might start looking elsewhere.


Thoughts, anyone?


Matjaz Slak
[hidden email]

Atol d.o.o.  |  http://www.atol.si  |  tel. +386 1 510 15 30



Richie <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]

17.07.2006 16:57

Please respond to
[hidden email]

To
[hidden email]
cc
[hidden email]
Subject
Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea from a        VTiger        Integrator





Hi Matjaz!
I hope I am addressing you properly if not please forgive me and direct to the proper mode of addressing.

If you are game then great!
Welcome to the club.
Please select your stand-in helper so that at least we have a backup for Linus Matjaz. Let me know and I will grant you the relevant access.

It would be nice if you could briefly state how you plan to address the
disparate contributions. This is just to get an idea as there are lots of data floating around in the code contributions and mailing lists; wanted to know if you have any specific plan. I will be busy with the v5 release and will not be able to help you much so the query.
I was earlier integrating it 1 by 1 till 4.2.3 and we do have a wiki page which reflects the status of the contributions. I am not sure if that is updated till the 4.2.4 release though. http://www.vtiger.com/wiki/index.php/Vtiger_CRM_Code_Contributions


Allan, any tips from you will be nice.

Richie




---- Sergio A. Kessler<[hidden email]> wrote ----

On 7/14/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> If there's no one else, I volunteer to be the v4 Linus.

just do it. ;-)


/sak
_______________________________________________
Get started with creating presentations online -
http://zohoshow.com?vt _______________________________________________
Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt


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Categories / Sub-Categories, Too Much

Brian Devendorf-2
If you haven't looked at the current collection of categories and subcategories, take a look. I think that it is becoming too much. Here's the current layout:

My Home Page
Home
Activities
Calendar
Emails

Marketing
Campaigns
Accounts
Contacts
Emails
Leads
Activities
Calendar
Notes

Sales
Leads
Accounts
Contacts
Potentials
Quotes
Sales Order
Invoice
Products
PriceBooks
Notes
Activities
Calendar

Support
HelpDesk
FAQ
Accounts
Contacts
Products
Notes
Emails
Activities
Calendar

Analytics
Dashboard
Reports

Inventory
Products
Vendors
PriceBooks
Purchase Order
Sales Order
Quotes
Invoice

Tools
RSS
My Sites
Notes

Settings
Settings

I know the list is long and hard to read, but that's my point. I know and understand that different people will want their sub-modules in different places. As long as the method for changing this is documented, I think that is ok. The default configuration, though, should be simpler. This current layout is almost scary. At least for an end-user it would be. I feel this change should be made before 5.0 GA.

To simplify, each item should only appear in one category. I have an updated proposal below that is the closest to meeting most of my customer's needs. With the All Menu, Quick Create, Related Items, and Tag Cloud, it shouldn't matter much if some modules are on different categories. I hope that there are still plans on combining activities and calendar into one item as well (I believe this was put off until after 5.0 GA).

I think that an interface for managing these should also be planned post 5.0 GA. I also think the order of the items is important and (where relevant) the order should remain consistent. For example, the sub categories should remain in the same order under the category as it shows in the All Menu. 

What does everyone else think? Anyone else show this to existing clients and get questions about why the same module appears in many places? That's what got me started thinking of improvements. Any better ideas?

My Home Page
Home
Emails
Activities
Calendar
Contacts
Notes

Marketing
Campaigns
Leads

Sales
Accounts
Potentials
Quotes
Sales Order
Invoice

Support
HelpDesk
FAQ

Inventory
Products
Vendors
PriceBooks
Purchase Order

Analytics
Dashboard
Reports

Tools
Settings
My Sites
RSS


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Re: An Impassioned Plea froma VTiger Integrator

GIRONNAY Thibault
In reply to this post by Matjaz.Slak

Hi all,

 

Matjaz I’ll be with you and your team in your enterprise, I agree with your priorities and have one another to add : the security. The organisation sharing privileges for example is indeed totally an illusion. It’s too easy too change those settings while not being admin or to see all records even if the privileges are private. I think this is very harmful to offer such buggy features and can discredit Vtiger for the people who have interests in security.

 

Hope we’ll have others hands up

 

cabugs

 


De : [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] De la part de [hidden email]
Envoyé : mercredi 19 juillet 2006 16:46
À : [hidden email]
Objet : Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea froma VTiger Integrator

 


Hi Richie and the rest of the team!

You address me correctly, Matjaz is my name :)



As I belive the 4.2.x stream is the current "production" vTiger environment for most of the users, my primary goal would be to focus on:

  • debugging (fixing parts that either don't work at all and/or work incorrectly)
  • improving usability (based on feedback from users)


I would also like to try and get the following not-quite-features, maybe bugs? implemented/fixed:

  • multilanguage support (simply get rid of any and all hard-coded strings)
  • full per user or at least per-system localization support (number format, date format, currency support etc)


These two last items are - in my opinion - somewhere between debugging and new features. vTiger is already supposed to support multiple languages, however this support is not well implemented. The same can be said for localization - vTiger is supposed to be able to support per-user date format, but again there are areas where the implementation is not as good as it could be.

Also, based on my researches into existing vTiger deployments, I see there are a lot of non-english users, but they probably are using forked code, as due to these two issues they cannot use the "official" 4.2.x stream code. I would like to get these users back on the team, and I know they might return only if we provide them with a 100% localisable product. This will enable them to post the patches they make back to the community or at least give them an opportunity to work with us on resolving them.

I would try and keep us on this track, rather than go try implement new features and make large changes to UI - the place for these is v5.


To achieve this, I would first gather any and all contributions currently lying around (in the forum, as provided by other people here etc.) - matching the categories above - and start the process of getting them in the code. I would like to see a show of hands from people that would be prepared to devote some time to debugging/updating tthese contributions - as some might need an update. I know me and my colleagues in our company will.

If all goes well, we could try and implement a regular timeline (say every month) when we would be releasing point versions. If I get at least two or three people to help, I guess we could have our first result (4.2.5 I guess) in two months.

I think there will be people using the 4.2.x stream for at least a year after v5 is released, and that if we as a team show them we are supporting them, than they will upgrade to v5 -> if we don't they might start looking elsewhere.


Thoughts, anyone?


Matjaz Slak
[hidden email]

Atol d.o.o.  |  http://www.atol.si  |  tel. +386 1 510 15 30


Richie <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]

17.07.2006 16:57

Please respond to
[hidden email]

To

[hidden email]

cc

[hidden email]

Subject

Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea from a        VTiger        Integrator

 

 

 




Hi Matjaz!
I hope I am addressing you properly if not please forgive me and direct to the proper mode of addressing.

If you are game then great!
Welcome to the club.
Please select your stand-in helper so that at least we have a backup for Linus Matjaz. Let me know and I will grant you the relevant access.

It would be nice if you could briefly state how you plan to address the
disparate contributions. This is just to get an idea as there are lots of data floating around in the code contributions and mailing lists; wanted to know if you have any specific plan. I will be busy with the v5 release and will not be able to help you much so the query.
I was earlier integrating it 1 by 1 till 4.2.3 and we do have a wiki page which reflects the status of the contributions. I am not sure if that is updated till the 4.2.4 release though. http://www.vtiger.com/wiki/index.php/Vtiger_CRM_Code_Contributions


Allan, any tips from you will be nice.

Richie




---- Sergio A. Kessler<[hidden email]> wrote ----

On 7/14/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> If there's no one else, I volunteer to be the v4 Linus.

just do it. ;-)


/sak
_______________________________________________
Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt
_______________________________________________
Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt

--

Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 268.10.1 - Release Date: 14/07/2006


_______________________________________________
Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt 
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Re: An Impassioned Plea froma VTiger Integrator

Nolan Andres
Hi all,

Although I'd really love to be able to just contribute features without
having to re-integrate (into v5,) I agree with priorities and I'll
second the addition of security to the list. Security through obscurity
is bad enough, but with open source projects, it simply becomes security
through ignorance. I certainly wouldn't trust vTiger's security in an
environment where the data is actually confidential and a malicious or
competitive party would stand to gain by accessing it illicitly.

I don't have the availability to co-ordinate things, but you can count
on me for some quantity of bug-fixes, security patches, etc.

peace,
nokes

GIRONNAY Thibault wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>  
>
> Matjaz I’ll be with you and your team in your enterprise, I agree with
> your priorities and have one another to add : the security. The
> organisation sharing privileges for example is indeed totally an
> illusion. It’s too easy too change those settings while not being admin
> or to see all records even if the privileges are private. I think this
> is very harmful to offer such buggy features and can discredit Vtiger
> for the people who have interests in security.
>
>  
>
> Hope we’ll have others hands up
>
>  
>
> cabugs
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *De :* [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] *De la part
> de* [hidden email]
> *Envoyé :* mercredi 19 juillet 2006 16:46
> *À :* [hidden email]
> *Objet :* Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea froma VTiger
> Integrator
>
>  
>
>
> Hi Richie and the rest of the team!
>
> You address me correctly, Matjaz is my name :)
>
>
> As I belive the 4.2.x stream is the current "production" vTiger
> environment for most of the users, my primary goal would be to focus on:
>
>     * debugging (fixing parts that either don't work at all and/or work
>       incorrectly)
>     * improving usability (based on feedback from users)
>
>
> I would also like to try and get the following not-quite-features, maybe
> bugs? implemented/fixed:
>
>     * multilanguage support (simply get rid of any and all hard-coded
>       strings)
>     * full per user or at least per-system localization support (number
>       format, date format, currency support etc)
>
>
> These two last items are - in my opinion - somewhere between debugging
> and new features. vTiger is already supposed to support multiple
> languages, however this support is not well implemented. The same can be
> said for localization - vTiger is supposed to be able to support
> per-user date format, but again there are areas where the implementation
> is not as good as it could be.
>
> Also, based on my researches into existing vTiger deployments, I see
> there are a lot of non-english users, but they probably are using forked
> code, as due to these two issues they cannot use the "official" 4.2.x
> stream code. I would like to get these users back on the team, and I
> know they might return only if we provide them with a 100% localisable
> product. This will enable them to post the patches they make back to the
> community or at least give them an opportunity to work with us on
> resolving them.
>
> I would try and keep us on this track, rather than go try implement new
> features and make large changes to UI - the place for these is v5.
>
>
> To achieve this, I would first gather any and all contributions
> currently lying around (in the forum, as provided by other people here
> etc.) - matching the categories above - and start the process of getting
> them in the code. *I would like to see a show of hands* from people that
> would be prepared to devote some time to debugging/updating tthese
> contributions - as some might need an update. I know me and my
> colleagues in our company will.
>
> If all goes well, we could try and implement a regular timeline (say
> every month) when we would be releasing point versions. If I get at
> least two or three people to help, I guess we could have our first
> result (4.2.5 I guess) in two months.
>
> I think there will be people using the 4.2.x stream for at least a year
> after v5 is released, and that if we as a team show them we are
> supporting them, than they will upgrade to v5 -> if we don't they might
> start looking elsewhere.
>
>
> *Thoughts, anyone?*
>
>
> Matjaz Slak
> [hidden email]
>
> Atol d.o.o.  |  http://www.atol.si  |  tel. +386 1 510 15 30
>
> *Richie <[hidden email]>*
> Sent by: [hidden email]
>
> 17.07.2006 16:57
>
> Please respond to
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
> To
>
>
>
> [hidden email]
>
> cc
>
>
>
> [hidden email]
>
> Subject
>
>
>
> Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea from a        VTiger    
>    Integrator
>
>  
>
>  
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
> Hi Matjaz!
> I hope I am addressing you properly if not please forgive me and direct
> to the proper mode of addressing.
>
> If you are game then great!
> Welcome to the club.
> Please select your stand-in helper so that at least we have a backup for
> Linus Matjaz. Let me know and I will grant you the relevant access.
>
> It would be nice if you could briefly state how you plan to address the
> disparate contributions. This is just to get an idea as there are lots
> of data floating around in the code contributions and mailing lists;
> wanted to know if you have any specific plan. I will be busy with the v5
> release and will not be able to help you much so the query.
> I was earlier integrating it 1 by 1 till 4.2.3 and we do have a wiki
> page which reflects the status of the contributions. I am not sure if
> that is updated till the 4.2.4 release though.
> http://www.vtiger.com/wiki/index.php/Vtiger_CRM_Code_Contributions
>
>
> Allan, any tips from you will be nice.
>
> Richie
>
>
>
>
> ---- Sergio A. Kessler<[hidden email]> wrote ----
>
> On 7/14/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  Hi!
>>
>>  If there's no one else, I volunteer to be the v4 Linus.
>
> just do it. ;-)
>
>
> /sak
> _______________________________________________
> Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt 
> <http://zohoshow.com?vt/> _______________________________________________
> Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt
>
> --
>
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 268.10.1 - Release Date: 14/07/2006
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt 
_______________________________________________
Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt 
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Re: An Impassioned Plea froma VTiger Integrator

Matjaz.Slak
In reply to this post by GIRONNAY Thibault

Hi!

I agree completly. Security should be on the list of to-dos.

Matjaz Slak
[hidden email]

Atol d.o.o.  |  http://www.atol.si  |  tel. +386 1 510 15 30



"GIRONNAY Thibault" <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]

20.07.2006 17:54

Please respond to
[hidden email]

To
<[hidden email]>
cc
Subject
Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea        froma        VTiger        Integrator





Hi all,
 
Matjaz I’ll be with you and your team in your enterprise, I agree with your priorities and have one another to add : the security. The organisation sharing privileges for example is indeed totally an illusion. It’s too easy too change those settings while not being admin or to see all records even if the privileges are private. I think this is very harmful to offer such buggy features and can discredit Vtiger for the people who have interests in security.
 
Hope we’ll have others hands up
 
cabugs
 



De : [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] De la part de [hidden email]
Envoyé :
mercredi 19 juillet 2006 16:46
À :
[hidden email]
Objet :
Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea froma VTiger Integrator

 

Hi Richie and the rest of the team!

You address me correctly, Matjaz is my name :)



As I belive the 4.2.x stream is the current "production" vTiger environment for most of the users, my primary goal would be to focus on:
  • debugging (fixing parts that either don't work at all and/or work incorrectly)
  • improving usability (based on feedback from users)

I would also like to try and get the following not-quite-features, maybe bugs? implemented/fixed:
  • multilanguage support (simply get rid of any and all hard-coded strings)
  • full per user or at least per-system localization support (number format, date format, currency support etc)

These two last items are - in my opinion - somewhere between debugging and new features. vTiger is already supposed to support multiple languages, however this support is not well implemented. The same can be said for localization - vTiger is supposed to be able to support per-user date format, but again there are areas where the implementation is not as good as it could be.


Also, based on my researches into existing vTiger deployments, I see there are a lot of non-english users, but they probably are using forked code, as due to these two issues they cannot use the "official" 4.2.x stream code. I would like to get these users back on the team, and I know they might return only if we provide them with a 100% localisable product. This will enable them to post the patches they make back to the community or at least give them an opportunity to work with us on resolving them.


I would try and keep us on this track, rather than go try implement new features and make large changes to UI - the place for these is v5.



To achieve this, I would first gather any and all contributions currently lying around (in the forum, as provided by other people here etc.) - matching the categories above - and start the process of getting them in the code. I would like to see a show of hands from people that would be prepared to devote some time to debugging/updating tthese contributions - as some might need an update. I know me and my colleagues in our company will.


If all goes well, we could try and implement a regular timeline (say every month) when we would be releasing point versions. If I get at least two or three people to help, I guess we could have our first result (4.2.5 I guess) in two months.


I think there will be people using the 4.2.x stream for at least a year after v5 is released, and that if we as a team show them we are supporting them, than they will upgrade to v5 -> if we don't they might start looking elsewhere.



Thoughts, anyone?



Matjaz Slak
[hidden email]

Atol d.o.o.  |  http://www.atol.si  |  tel. +386 1 510 15 30

Richie <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]

17.07.2006 16:57


Please respond to
[hidden email]


To
[hidden email]
cc
[hidden email]
Subject
Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea from a        VTiger        Integrator

 


   





Hi Matjaz!
I hope I am addressing you properly if not please forgive me and direct to the proper mode of addressing.

If you are game then great!
Welcome to the club.
Please select your stand-in helper so that at least we have a backup for Linus Matjaz. Let me know and I will grant you the relevant access.

It would be nice if you could briefly state how you plan to address the
disparate contributions. This is just to get an idea as there are lots of data floating around in the code contributions and mailing lists; wanted to know if you have any specific plan. I will be busy with the v5 release and will not be able to help you much so the query.
I was earlier integrating it 1 by 1 till 4.2.3 and we do have a wiki page which reflects the status of the contributions. I am not sure if that is updated till the 4.2.4 release though. http://www.vtiger.com/wiki/index.php/Vtiger_CRM_Code_Contributions


Allan, any tips from you will be nice.

Richie




---- Sergio A. Kessler<[hidden email]> wrote ----

On 7/14/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> If there's no one else, I volunteer to be the v4 Linus.

just do it. ;-)


/sak
_______________________________________________
Get started with creating presentations online -
http://zohoshow.com?vt _______________________________________________
Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt

--

Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 268.10.1 - Release Date: 14/07/2006
_______________________________________________
Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt


_______________________________________________
Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt 


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Calling for wishes and/or requests about which item(s) you would like to have fixed in 4.2.x

Matjaz.Slak
In reply to this post by Nolan Andres

Hi!

Thank you!


I hope I'll be able to finish up some of my other tasks within a week or so and then I'll start posting ideas about what to work on here.

If anybody has any general wishes and/or requests about which item(s) you would like to have fixed in 4.2.x, post them here. By this I mean areas perceived by vTiger users. Try to fit them in the following categories:
  • debugging (fixing user-perceived functions that either don't work at all and/or work incorrectly)
  • improving usability (based on feedback from users)
  • improving security (let us know of possible security holes)
  • multilanguage support (simply get rid of any and all hard-coded strings)
  • localization support (number format, date format, currency support etc - per user or at least per-system)
  • other (we can create aditional categories if the need arises)

For example:
  • Private Custom Views - allow for a custom view to be marked as private and only be visible to the user that created it (usability)
  • All View columns sortable - allow a user to click on any column and sort it (usability)
  • Repeating calls/meetings - don't work at all? (debugging)
  • etc...

I'll be collecting them and posting them somewhere - the TRAC Wiki comes to mind as an appropriate place. We can the priorithise them and look into required work - and then create tickets for developers (us, again :) to work on.

Richie, Jeff, Matt and/or others: would it me possible for me to have acces to post some content to the TRAC Wiki? I would create a document like "vTiger 4.2.x to-do area" that would include these items we wish to work on - and specific goals for them. Tickets would then be created based on these. This document would represent the general guideline.

Matjaz Slak
[hidden email]

Atol d.o.o.  |  http://www.atol.si  |  tel. +386 1 510 15 30



Nolan Andres <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]

20.07.2006 19:50

Please respond to
[hidden email]

To
[hidden email]
cc
Subject
Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned        Plea        froma        VTiger        Integrator





Hi all,

Although I'd really love to be able to just contribute features without
having to re-integrate (into v5,) I agree with priorities and I'll
second the addition of security to the list. Security through obscurity
is bad enough, but with open source projects, it simply becomes security
through ignorance. I certainly wouldn't trust vTiger's security in an
environment where the data is actually confidential and a malicious or
competitive party would stand to gain by accessing it illicitly.

I don't have the availability to co-ordinate things, but you can count
on me for some quantity of bug-fixes, security patches, etc.

peace,
nokes

GIRONNAY Thibault wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>  
>
> Matjaz I’ll be with you and your team in your enterprise, I agree with
> your priorities and have one another to add : the security. The
> organisation sharing privileges for example is indeed totally an
> illusion. It’s too easy too change those settings while not being admin
> or to see all records even if the privileges are private. I think this
> is very harmful to offer such buggy features and can discredit Vtiger
> for the people who have interests in security.
>
>  
>
> Hope we’ll have others hands up
>
>  
>
> cabugs
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *De :* [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] *De la part
> de* [hidden email]
> *Envoyé :* mercredi 19 juillet 2006 16:46
> *À :* [hidden email]
> *Objet :* Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea froma VTiger
> Integrator
>
>  
>
>
> Hi Richie and the rest of the team!
>
> You address me correctly, Matjaz is my name :)
>
>
> As I belive the 4.2.x stream is the current "production" vTiger
> environment for most of the users, my primary goal would be to focus on:
>
>     * debugging (fixing parts that either don't work at all and/or work
>       incorrectly)
>     * improving usability (based on feedback from users)
>
>
> I would also like to try and get the following not-quite-features, maybe
> bugs? implemented/fixed:
>
>     * multilanguage support (simply get rid of any and all hard-coded
>       strings)
>     * full per user or at least per-system localization support (number
>       format, date format, currency support etc)
>
>
> These two last items are - in my opinion - somewhere between debugging
> and new features. vTiger is already supposed to support multiple
> languages, however this support is not well implemented. The same can be
> said for localization - vTiger is supposed to be able to support
> per-user date format, but again there are areas where the implementation
> is not as good as it could be.
>
> Also, based on my researches into existing vTiger deployments, I see
> there are a lot of non-english users, but they probably are using forked
> code, as due to these two issues they cannot use the "official" 4.2.x
> stream code. I would like to get these users back on the team, and I
> know they might return only if we provide them with a 100% localisable
> product. This will enable them to post the patches they make back to the
> community or at least give them an opportunity to work with us on
> resolving them.
>
> I would try and keep us on this track, rather than go try implement new
> features and make large changes to UI - the place for these is v5.
>
>
> To achieve this, I would first gather any and all contributions
> currently lying around (in the forum, as provided by other people here
> etc.) - matching the categories above - and start the process of getting
> them in the code. *I would like to see a show of hands* from people that
> would be prepared to devote some time to debugging/updating tthese
> contributions - as some might need an update. I know me and my
> colleagues in our company will.
>
> If all goes well, we could try and implement a regular timeline (say
> every month) when we would be releasing point versions. If I get at
> least two or three people to help, I guess we could have our first
> result (4.2.5 I guess) in two months.
>
> I think there will be people using the 4.2.x stream for at least a year
> after v5 is released, and that if we as a team show them we are
> supporting them, than they will upgrade to v5 -> if we don't they might
> start looking elsewhere.
>
>
> *Thoughts, anyone?*
>
>
> Matjaz Slak
> [hidden email]
>
> Atol d.o.o.  |  http://www.atol.si  |  tel. +386 1 510 15 30
>
> *Richie <[hidden email]>*
> Sent by: [hidden email]
>
> 17.07.2006 16:57
>
> Please respond to
> [hidden email]
>
>                  
>
> To
>
>                  
>
> [hidden email]
>
> cc
>
>                  
>
> [hidden email]
>
> Subject
>
>                  
>
> Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea from a        VTiger    
>    Integrator
>
>  
>
>  
>
>                  
>
>  
>
>
>
>
> Hi Matjaz!
> I hope I am addressing you properly if not please forgive me and direct
> to the proper mode of addressing.
>
> If you are game then great!
> Welcome to the club.
> Please select your stand-in helper so that at least we have a backup for
> Linus Matjaz. Let me know and I will grant you the relevant access.
>
> It would be nice if you could briefly state how you plan to address the
> disparate contributions. This is just to get an idea as there are lots
> of data floating around in the code contributions and mailing lists;
> wanted to know if you have any specific plan. I will be busy with the v5
> release and will not be able to help you much so the query.
> I was earlier integrating it 1 by 1 till 4.2.3 and we do have a wiki
> page which reflects the status of the contributions. I am not sure if
> that is updated till the 4.2.4 release though.
> http://www.vtiger.com/wiki/index.php/Vtiger_CRM_Code_Contributions
>
>
> Allan, any tips from you will be nice.
>
> Richie
>
>
>
>
> ---- Sergio A. Kessler<[hidden email]> wrote ----
>
> On 7/14/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  Hi!
>>
>>  If there's no one else, I volunteer to be the v4 Linus.
>
> just do it. ;-)
>
>
> /sak
> _______________________________________________
> Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt
> <http://zohoshow.com?vt/> _______________________________________________
> Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt
>
> --
>
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 268.10.1 - Release Date: 14/07/2006
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt
_______________________________________________
Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt


_______________________________________________
Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt 

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Re: Calling for wishes and/or requests about which item(s) you would like to have fixed in 4.2.x

Richie-4
Matjaz, you already would have got the access mail for the trac.
About the TRAC Wiki, Matt will do the needful.


Let us know if you need anything else.

Richie




---- [hidden email]<[hidden email]> wrote ----


Hi!

Thank you!


I hope I'll be able to finish up some of my other tasks within a week or so and then I'll start posting ideas about what to work on here.

If anybody has any general wishes and/or requests about which item(s) you would like to have fixed in 4.2.x, post them here. By this I mean areas perceived by vTiger users. Try to fit them in the following categories:
  • debugging (fixing user-perceived functions that either don't work at all and/or work incorrectly)
  • improving usability (based on feedback from users)
  • improving security (let us know of possible security holes)
  • multilanguage support (simply get rid of any and all hard-coded strings)
  • localization support (number format, date format, currency support etc - per user or at least per-system)
  • other (we can create aditional categories if the need arises)

For example:
  • Private Custom Views - allow for a custom view to be marked as private and only be visible to the user that created it (usability)
  • All View columns sortable - allow a user to click on any column and sort it (usability)
  • Repeating calls/meetings - don't work at all? (debugging)
  • etc...

I'll be collecting them and posting them somewhere - the TRAC Wiki comes to mind as an appropriate place. We can the priorithise them and look into required work - and then create tickets for developers (us, again :) to work on.

Richie, Jeff, Matt and/or others: would it me possible for me to have acces to post some content to the TRAC Wiki? I would create a document like "vTiger 4.2.x to-do area" that would include these items we wish to work on - and specific goals for them. Tickets would then be created based on these. This document would represent the general guideline.

Matjaz Slak
[hidden email]

Atol d.o.o.  |  http://www.atol.si  |  tel. +386 1 510 15 30



Nolan Andres <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]

20.07.2006 19:50

Please respond to
[hidden email]

To
[hidden email]
cc
Subject
Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned        Plea        froma        VTiger        Integrator





Hi all,

Although I'd really love to be able to just contribute features without
having to re-integrate (into v5,) I agree with priorities and I'll
second the addition of security to the list. Security through obscurity
is bad enough, but with open source projects, it simply becomes security
through ignorance. I certainly wouldn't trust vTiger's security in an
environment where the data is actually confidential and a malicious or
competitive party would stand to gain by accessing it illicitly.

I don't have the availability to co-ordinate things, but you can count
on me for some quantity of bug-fixes, security patches, etc.

peace,
nokes

GIRONNAY Thibault wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>  
>
> Matjaz I’ll be with you and your team in your enterprise, I agree with
> your priorities and have one another to add : the security. The
> organisation sharing privileges for example is indeed totally an
> illusion. It’s too easy too change those settings while not being admin
> or to see all records even if the privileges are private. I think this
> is very harmful to offer such buggy features and can discredit Vtiger
> for the people who have interests in security.
>
>  
>
> Hope we’ll have others hands up
>
>  
>
> cabugs
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *De :* [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] *De la part
> de* [hidden email]
> *Envoyé :* mercredi 19 juillet 2006 16:46
> *À :* [hidden email]
> *Objet :* Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea froma VTiger
> Integrator
>
>  
>
>
> Hi Richie and the rest of the team!
>
> You address me correctly, Matjaz is my name :)
>
>
> As I belive the 4.2.x stream is the current "production" vTiger
> environment for most of the users, my primary goal would be to focus on:
>
>     * debugging (fixing parts that either don't work at all and/or work
>       incorrectly)
>     * improving usability (based on feedback from users)
>
>
> I would also like to try and get the following not-quite-features, maybe
> bugs? implemented/fixed:
>
>     * multilanguage support (simply get rid of any and all hard-coded
>       strings)
>     * full per user or at least per-system localization support (number
>       format, date format, currency support etc)
>
>
> These two last items are - in my opinion - somewhere between debugging
> and new features. vTiger is already supposed to support multiple
> languages, however this support is not well implemented. The same can be
> said for localization - vTiger is supposed to be able to support
> per-user date format, but again there are areas where the implementation
> is not as good as it could be.
>
> Also, based on my researches into existing vTiger deployments, I see
> there are a lot of non-english users, but they probably are using forked
> code, as due to these two issues they cannot use the "official" 4.2.x
> stream code. I would like to get these users back on the team, and I
> know they might return only if we provide them with a 100% localisable
> product. This will enable them to post the patches they make back to the
> community or at least give them an opportunity to work with us on
> resolving them.
>
> I would try and keep us on this track, rather than go try implement new
> features and make large changes to UI - the place for these is v5.
>
>
> To achieve this, I would first gather any and all contributions
> currently lying around (in the forum, as provided by other people here
> etc.) - matching the categories above - and start the process of getting
> them in the code. *I would like to see a show of hands* from people that
> would be prepared to devote some time to debugging/updating tthese
> contributions - as some might need an update. I know me and my
> colleagues in our company will.
>
> If all goes well, we could try and implement a regular timeline (say
> every month) when we would be releasing point versions. If I get at
> least two or three people to help, I guess we could have our first
> result (4.2.5 I guess) in two months.
>
> I think there will be people using the 4.2.x stream for at least a year
> after v5 is released, and that if we as a team show them we are
> supporting them, than they will upgrade to v5 -> if we don't they might
> start looking elsewhere.
>
>
> *Thoughts, anyone?*
>
>
> Matjaz Slak
> [hidden email]
>
> Atol d.o.o.  |  http://www.atol.si  |  tel. +386 1 510 15 30
>
> *Richie <[hidden email]>*
> Sent by: [hidden email]
>
> 17.07.2006 16:57
>
> Please respond to
> [hidden email]
>
>                  
>
> To
>
>                  
>
> [hidden email]
>
> cc
>
>                  
>
> [hidden email]
>
> Subject
>
>                  
>
> Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea from a        VTiger    
>    Integrator
>
>  
>
>  
>
>                  
>
>  
>
>
>
>
> Hi Matjaz!
> I hope I am addressing you properly if not please forgive me and direct
> to the proper mode of addressing.
>
> If you are game then great!
> Welcome to the club.
> Please select your stand-in helper so that at least we have a backup for
> Linus Matjaz. Let me know and I will grant you the relevant access.
>
> It would be nice if you could briefly state how you plan to address the
> disparate contributions. This is just to get an idea as there are lots
> of data floating around in the code contributions and mailing lists;
> wanted to know if you have any specific plan. I will be busy with the v5
> release and will not be able to help you much so the query.
> I was earlier integrating it 1 by 1 till 4.2.3 and we do have a wiki
> page which reflects the status of the contributions. I am not sure if
> that is updated till the 4.2.4 release though.
> http://www.vtiger.com/wiki/index.php/Vtiger_CRM_Code_Contributions
>
>
> Allan, any tips from you will be nice.
>
> Richie
>
>
>
>
> ---- Sergio A. Kessler<[hidden email]> wrote ----
>
> On 7/14/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  Hi!
>>
>>  If there's no one else, I volunteer to be the v4 Linus.
>
> just do it. ;-)
>
>
> /sak
> _______________________________________________
> Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt
> <http://zohoshow.com?vt/> _______________________________________________
> Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt
>
> --
>
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 268.10.1 - Release Date: 14/07/2006
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Get started with creating presentations online - http://zohoshow.com?vt
_______________________________________________
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Re: Calling for wishes and/or requests about which item(s) you would like to have fixed in 4.2.x

Allan Bush
In reply to this post by Matjaz.Slak
This is the page we should be using to keep track of everything to be done for 4.2.5: http://vtiger.fosslabs.com/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&milestone=4.2.5

It would be nice to have a 4.2.6 (or 4.2 future) milestone to keep the list realistic though.  Fell free to organize, add and prioritize the things in that list.

On the same note you here is the page of everything already accomplished for 4.2.5:
http://vtiger.fosslabs.com/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/query?status=closed&milestone=4.2.5

On 7/21/06, Richie <[hidden email]> wrote:
Matjaz, you already would have got the access mail for the trac.
About the TRAC Wiki, Matt will do the needful.


Let us know if you need anything else.

Richie




---- [hidden email]<[hidden email]> wrote ----



Hi!

Thank you!


I hope I'll be able to finish up some of my other tasks within a week or so and then I'll start posting ideas about what to work on here.

If anybody has any general wishes and/or requests about which item(s) you would like to have fixed in 4.2.x, post them here. By this I mean areas perceived by vTiger users. Try to fit them in the following categories:
  • debugging (fixing user-perceived functions that either don't work at all and/or work incorrectly)
  • improving usability (based on feedback from users)
  • improving security (let us know of possible security holes)
  • multilanguage support (simply get rid of any and all hard-coded strings)
  • localization support (number format, date format, currency support etc - per user or at least per-system)
  • other (we can create aditional categories if the need arises)

For example:
  • Private Custom Views - allow for a custom view to be marked as private and only be visible to the user that created it (usability)
  • All View columns sortable - allow a user to click on any column and sort it (usability)
  • Repeating calls/meetings - don't work at all? (debugging)
  • etc...

I'll be collecting them and posting them somewhere - the TRAC Wiki comes to mind as an appropriate place. We can the priorithise them and look into required work - and then create tickets for developers (us, again :) to work on.

Richie, Jeff, Matt and/or others: would it me possible for me to have acces to post some content to the TRAC Wiki? I would create a document like "vTiger 4.2.x to-do area" that would include these items we wish to work on - and specific goals for them. Tickets would then be created based on these. This document would represent the general guideline.

Matjaz Slak
[hidden email]

Atol d.o.o.  |  <a href="http://www.atol.si" title="http://www.atol.si" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.atol.si  |  tel. +386 1 510 15 30



Nolan Andres <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]

20.07.2006 19:50

Please respond to
[hidden email]

To
[hidden email]
cc

Subject
Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned        Plea        froma        VTiger        Integrator







Hi all,

Although I'd really love to be able to just contribute features without
having to re-integrate (into v5,) I agree with priorities and I'll
second the addition of security to the list. Security through obscurity
is bad enough, but with open source projects, it simply becomes security
through ignorance. I certainly wouldn't trust vTiger's security in an
environment where the data is actually confidential and a malicious or
competitive party would stand to gain by accessing it illicitly.

I don't have the availability to co-ordinate things, but you can count
on me for some quantity of bug-fixes, security patches, etc.

peace,
nokes

GIRONNAY Thibault wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>  
>
> Matjaz I'll be with you and your team in your enterprise, I agree with
> your priorities and have one another to add : the security. The
> organisation sharing privileges for example is indeed totally an
> illusion. It's too easy too change those settings while not being admin
> or to see all records even if the privileges are private. I think this
> is very harmful to offer such buggy features and can discredit Vtiger
> for the people who have interests in security.
>
>  
>
> Hope we'll have others hands up
>
>  
>
> cabugs
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *De :* [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] *De la part
> de* [hidden email]
> *Envoyé :* mercredi 19 juillet 2006 16:46
> *À :* [hidden email]
> *Objet :* Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea froma VTiger
> Integrator
>
>  
>
>
> Hi Richie and the rest of the team!
>
> You address me correctly, Matjaz is my name :)
>
>
> As I belive the 4.2.x stream is the current "production" vTiger
> environment for most of the users, my primary goal would be to focus on:
>
>     * debugging (fixing parts that either don't work at all and/or work
>       incorrectly)
>     * improving usability (based on feedback from users)
>
>
> I would also like to try and get the following not-quite-features, maybe
> bugs? implemented/fixed:
>
>     * multilanguage support (simply get rid of any and all hard-coded
>       strings)
>     * full per user or at least per-system localization support (number
>       format, date format, currency support etc)
>
>
> These two last items are - in my opinion - somewhere between debugging
> and new features. vTiger is already supposed to support multiple
> languages, however this support is not well implemented. The same can be
> said for localization - vTiger is supposed to be able to support
> per-user date format, but again there are areas where the implementation
> is not as good as it could be.
>
> Also, based on my researches into existing vTiger deployments, I see
> there are a lot of non-english users, but they probably are using forked
> code, as due to these two issues they cannot use the "official" 4.2.x
> stream code. I would like to get these users back on the team, and I
> know they might return only if we provide them with a 100% localisable
> product. This will enable them to post the patches they make back to the
> community or at least give them an opportunity to work with us on
> resolving them.
>
> I would try and keep us on this track, rather than go try implement new
> features and make large changes to UI - the place for these is v5.
>
>
> To achieve this, I would first gather any and all contributions
> currently lying around (in the forum, as provided by other people here
> etc.) - matching the categories above - and start the process of getting
> them in the code. *I would like to see a show of hands* from people that
> would be prepared to devote some time to debugging/updating tthese
> contributions - as some might need an update. I know me and my
> colleagues in our company will.
>
> If all goes well, we could try and implement a regular timeline (say
> every month) when we would be releasing point versions. If I get at
> least two or three people to help, I guess we could have our first
> result (4.2.5 I guess) in two months.
>
> I think there will be people using the 4.2.x stream for at least a year
> after v5 is released, and that if we as a team show them we are
> supporting them, than they will upgrade to v5 -> if we don't they might
> start looking elsewhere.
>
>
> *Thoughts, anyone?*
>
>
> Matjaz Slak
> [hidden email]
>
> Atol d.o.o.  |  <a href="http://www.atol.si" title="http://www.atol.si" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.atol.si  |  tel. +386 1 510 15 30
>
> *Richie <[hidden email]>*
> Sent by: [hidden email]
>
> 17.07.2006 16:57
>
> Please respond to
> [hidden email]
>
>                  
>
> To
>
>                  
>
> [hidden email]
>
> cc
>
>                  
>
> [hidden email]
>
> Subject
>
>                  
>
> Re: [Vtigercrm-developers] An Impassioned Plea from a        VTiger    
>    Integrator
>
>  
>
>  
>
>                  
>
>  
>
>
>
>
> Hi Matjaz!
> I hope I am addressing you properly if not please forgive me and direct
> to the proper mode of addressing.
>
> If you are game then great!
> Welcome to the club.
> Please select your stand-in helper so that at least we have a backup for
> Linus Matjaz. Let me know and I will grant you the relevant access.
>
> It would be nice if you could briefly state how you plan to address the
> disparate contributions. This is just to get an idea as there are lots
> of data floating around in the code contributions and mailing lists;
> wanted to know if you have any specific plan. I will be busy with the v5
> release and will not be able to help you much so the query.
> I was earlier integrating it 1 by 1 till 4.2.3 and we do have a wiki
> page which reflects the status of the contributions. I am not sure if
> that is updated till the 4.2.4 release though.
> <a href="http://www.vtiger.com/wiki/index.php/Vtiger_CRM_Code_Contributions" title="http://www.vtiger.com/wiki/index.php/Vtiger_CRM_Code_Contributions" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> http://www.vtiger.com/wiki/index.php/Vtiger_CRM_Code_Contributions
>
>
> Allan, any tips from you will be nice.
>
> Richie
>
>
>
>
> ---- Sergio A. Kessler<[hidden email]> wrote ----
>
> On 7/14/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  Hi!
>>
>>  If there's no one else, I volunteer to be the v4 Linus.
>
> just do it. ;-)
>
>
> /sak
> _______________________________________________
> Get started with creating presentations online - <a href="http://zohoshow.com?vt" title="http://zohoshow.com?vt" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://zohoshow.com?vt
> <<a href="http://zohoshow.com?vt/%3E" title="http://zohoshow.com?vt/&gt;" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://zohoshow.com?vt/> _______________________________________________
> Get started with creating presentations online - <a href="http://zohoshow.com?vt" title="http://zohoshow.com?vt" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://zohoshow.com?vt
>
> --
>
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 268.10.1 - Release Date: 14/07/2006
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Get started with creating presentations online - <a href="http://zohoshow.com?vt" title="http://zohoshow.com?vt" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://zohoshow.com?vt
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Re: Calling for wishes and/or requests about which item(s) you would like to have fixed in 4.2.x

Mike Fedyk
In reply to this post by Matjaz.Slak
[hidden email] wrote:

>
> Hi!
>
> Thank you!
>
> I hope I'll be able to finish up some of my other tasks within a week
> or so and then I'll start posting ideas about what to work on here.
>
> *If anybody has any general wishes and/or requests about which item(s)
> you would like to have fixed in 4.2.x, post them here.* By this I mean
> areas perceived by vTiger users. Try to fit them in the following
> categories:
>
>     * debugging (fixing user-perceived functions that either don't
>       work at all and/or work incorrectly)
>     * improving usability (based on feedback from users)
>     * improving security (let us know of possible security holes)
>     * multilanguage support (simply get rid of any and all hard-coded
>       strings)
>     * localization support (number format, date format, currency
>       support etc - per user or at least per-system)
>     * other (we can create aditional categories if the need arises)
>
Hi Matjaz,

I was one of the maintainers for the 4.2.x branch a few months ago but
have been inactive for a few months -- I wonder if my commit access is
still there...  It is good to see activity for 4.2.x. :)

I would like to add a few cleanup/features to the list.

1) Currently leads and contacts are kept in separate tables in the
vtiger 4.2.x database schema.  If these are merged, then a whole new set
of possibilities are available including but not limited to: lead
companies, database simplification, contacts associated with a lead
company, leads associated with an account, potentials associated with a
lead company.

With this change, we may want to rename "account" to "company" or simply
add "lead accounts" or similar.  Suggestions wanted.

2) Separate the modules a bit more -- especially during installation.  
Each module should have ownership over the tables it uses and the code
that creates it should be within the module's directory.  I want to be
able to enable/disable modules or simply not include the files during
installation and identify core modules that interconnect and can't be
reasonably be removed.

Integrating mcrowe's installation system is probably a good idea as it
can manage this quite easily.

3) Licensing.  We need to make sure all licenses we use allow commercial
use.  I know that jgraph is under the QPL which prohibits commercial use
and that there was some code to replace jgraph but don't know the
status.  Also I would like to see a move away from the SPL and VPL
(Sugar Public License and Vtiger Public License) to the LGPL.

The LGPL does not encourage license renaming like the MPL does (which
both the SPL and VPL are based upon), and there is no argument that it
is Free Software.  It also allows for integration of proprietary modules
which is a good thing since you don't want to be restricted from
integrating vtiger with anything when consulting.

Once we remove the last remnants of SPL code we can get rid of the
notice at the bottom of every page that we are based on sugarcrm code.

4) Clean up the HTML produced by vtiger.  Right now all of the pages
produced by vtiger 4.2.x are rendered in Firefox's quirks mode.  This
really kills performance on older computers.  I suggest getting an old
computer with nothing faster than a Pentium 3 (you can max the memory
out and put new drives in there to make it faster -- the important part
is reducing the rendering time) and use that to test the rendering speed.

5) Fix the quick search.  Why doesn't it search for names and phone
numbers in leads, contacts and accounts?  There is more too.  We need to
focus on making everything easily searchable.

6) Associability.  There are arbitrary restrictions placed on the
information put into vtiger that shouldn't be.  Why can't a contact have
a potential?  Why can't a lead have a potential (hint it is explained
above)?  Where is the "referred by" field for leads, contacts and
accounts (and I mean proper references within the database, not just a
text field)?  These issues need to be fixed -- the "referred by" field
alone is the foundation for adding MLM specific features.

7) Expectability.  A lot of fields like sales percentage are just text
fields when you would expect calculations to be based upon them and used
elsewhere.  There a lot of places like this that need to be fixed.

8) Using custom field types better.  If it is a phone number, it should
be grouped with the other phone number fields so custom fields don't
stand out like they are an afterthought.

9) We need to focus more on external modules.  If sugar did something
right, it was their focus on API and external modules.  One way to do
this is to take out some of our problematic modules, like invoices,
inventory, mail, etc. and make them external modules that are installed
after the core is put in.  This will allow the code to be put up on the
vtiger forge and allow for competing modules to be created.

10) We need an online upgrade system.  This will allow an existing
installation to be upgraded with the click of a button.  No more
questions on the forum about the upgrade process.  It will even export
their database before doing any changes.  Does anyone else do this?

And yes I want this in the 4.2.x codebase.  It has a lot of problems but
they are fixable.

Frankly I think the 5.0 release will be a flop.  The UI was just too
complicated last time I checked a few months ago.  And if it is like
previous releases it will require a few patch releases before it is
usable.  I'd appreciate it if someone forward ported these changes to
the 5.0 codebase once they're done in 4.2.x.  I really have no interest
in 5.0 at this time, but will probably backport some of the fixes that
are there.  I hope I'm wrong, but I think the UI change is a mistake.

P. S. I am now working for an ISO (Independent Sales Organization) in
the credit processing industry.  They are in need of a scheduling system
and unfortunately vtiger doesn't meet the requirements for that, so I'm
looking at egroupware for that but it doesn't have the CRM features
vtiger does. :-/  Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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