Add doc relation

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iko
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Add doc relation

iko
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Re: Add doc relation

its4you
No this wasn't ported to 6.x version. We have created a small extensions
which make it possible for 6.x version.

https://marketplace.vtiger.com/extensions?id=299

The code from 5.x is not compatible with 6.x.

Matus.

Dňa 23. 4. 2017 o 10:50 iko napísal(a):

> Anyone knows if this has been ported to 6.5
>
> http://trac.vtiger.com/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/attachment/ticket/6551/addDocRelation_521.diff
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://vtiger-crm.2324883.n4.nabble.com/Add-doc-relation-tp20693.html
> Sent from the vtigercrm-developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.vtiger.com/
>


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iko
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Re: Add doc relation

iko
It seems that fixing Vtiger's bugs and lack of functions is now moved to Marketplace and is a source of income. What will happen to Vtiger in future? Full of bugs that are not fixed in the community version and those that can fix these bugs are not interested in doing so. This will drive new users and developers even further from Vtiger.

Or am I wrong?  
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Re: Add doc relation

Alan Lord (News)
On 25/04/17 08:28, iko wrote:
> It seems that fixing Vtiger's bugs and lack of functions is now moved to
> Marketplace and is a source of income. What will happen to Vtiger in future?
> Full of bugs that are not fixed in the community version and those that can
> fix these bugs are not interested in doing so. This will drive new users and
> developers even further from Vtiger.
>
> Or am I wrong?

IMHO the Marketplace offers a place for additional features and
non-generic applications.

I don't think particular issue was ever really a "bug"; a missing
feature yes.

But the good news is that this functionality is in the 7.0.0 version.

HTH

Al


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iko
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Re: Add doc relation

iko
It may be called lack of function. But if this feature is expected to be there and is quite crucial, I'd call it a bug that has to be fixed. And there are numerous things like that in Vtiger. So the reality is that if you opt for Vtiger, you have to either invest a lot of time in fixing these issues self, or pay a lot of money and buy extensions on Marketplace. So Vtiger is a free Community Open Source CRM that would cost you either a lot of effort in fixing bugs or a lot of money in buying extensions. Fair game, I guess. For those that are planning to begin with Vtiger, it is quite crucial to have overview over numerous bugs and lack of functions Vtiger comes with. I can write a long list of these in Vtger 6.5.

Great system, but would cost you a lot of time, effort and money.
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Re: Add doc relation

Alan Lord (News)
On 25/04/17 09:33, iko wrote:

> It may be called lack of function. But if this feature is expected to be
> there and is quite crucial, I'd call it a bug that has to be fixed. And
> there are numerous things like that in Vtiger. So the reality is that if you
> opt for Vtiger, you have to either invest a lot of time in fixing these
> issues self, or pay a lot of money and buy extensions on Marketplace. So
> Vtiger is a free Community Open Source CRM that would cost you either a lot
> of effort in fixing bugs or a lot of money in buying extensions. Fair game,
> I guess. For those that are planning to begin with Vtiger, it is quite
> crucial to have overview over numerous bugs and lack of functions Vtiger
> comes with. I can write a long list of these in Vtger 6.5.
>
> Great system, but would cost you a lot of time, effort and money.

Well, we have lots of customers using vtiger all over the world. We
charge for our time to help them implement and set it up and we have
been doing so for many years. I can recall only one or two times this
particular requirement has ever come up as an issue with our clients and
it was not considered a major problem by anyone.

Show me *any* open source business application that you can simply
implement without spending any time and I will show you a liar :-) But
actually, show me any business application at all (proprietary or open)
that doesn't need time to setup, learn and implement. SAP consultants
make a lot of money ;-)

Open Source is, and has never really been, free as in "free beer". There
is always a cost - be it in your time, or your money. But what you do
have is Freedom to do with the code as _you_ wish. If you find something
you want to change, you can change it. You can't always do that with
proprietary systems.

"lot of money" for extensions is a bit daft frankly. vtiger is a
business application. Most extensions on the Marketplace are priced in
the tens of dollars. If a business can't afford that then they certainly
can't afford to pay for consultants to implement a system for them.

Al


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iko
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Re: Add doc relation

iko
Thank you for insight, Al. And one more question. When you implement the system to your client, do you charge them for fixing all the bugs and misfunctions that come with the 'clean' version? Plus for necessary extensions? How much would such implementation cost to the customer?

There is quite a lot of competition on the CRM market, and margins are squeezed. Asking customer to pay $199 USD extra for an extension is not popular.
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Re: Add doc relation

Alan Lord (News)
On 25/04/17 10:14, iko wrote:
> Thank you for insight, Al. And one more question. When you implement the
> system to your client, do you charge them for fixing all the bugs and
> misfunctions that come with the 'clean' version? Plus for necessary
> extensions? How much would such implementation cost to the customer?

If a customer finds a bug that *affects* them and we have to
investigate, diagnose a produce a fix then yes, we charge. For others
bugs and issues that were are aware of and already have patches for then
not usually no.

The cost of an implementation is impossible to say like that. It can
vary from just a few hours to help a client setup and provide some basic
training for an administrator, through to many man-months of work
depending on what the requirement is. We have some very large vtiger
systems (tens of millions of rows of data, hundreds of simultaneous
users) with complex integration to other systems.

> There is quite a lot of competition on the CRM market, and margins are
> squeezed. Asking customer to pay $199 USD extra for an extension is not
> popular.

There is loads of competition - that is a good thing :-)

If you are referring to GeoTools at $199, then it is a unique product
which provides an extension to vtiger for those customers who want it
(lots of customers apparently do want it a appreciate what it provides).
But, if you don't need it you don't need to buy it.

Cheers

Al


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iko
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Re: Add doc relation

iko
There is no need to get defensive. Community has done a great job on getting Vtiger where it is now.
But, as you say, being aware of the bugs and have patches is alpha and omega with this system.
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Re: Add doc relation

Alan Lord (News)
On 25/04/17 13:12, iko wrote:
> There is no need to get defensive. Community has done a great job on getting
> Vtiger where it is now.

I didn't think I was. I thought I was just answering your questions ;-)


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Re: Add doc relation

Chris Thompson
In reply to this post by iko

I didn't sense defensiveness. I felt his statements were pragmatic and realistic to be honest.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 25, 2017, at 8:12 AM, iko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> There is no need to get defensive. Community has done a great job on getting
> Vtiger where it is now.
> But, as you say, being aware of the bugs and have patches is alpha and omega
> with this system.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://vtiger-crm.2324883.n4.nabble.com/Add-doc-relation-tp20693p20701.html
> Sent from the vtigercrm-developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.vtiger.com/


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Re: Add doc relation

its4you
In reply to this post by iko
If I can add my opinion. As you can see in trac, there is a full code
changes for vtiger 5.x, but this was never ported for official 5.x
version. I'm sure they don't merge it even if we push it for 6.x version
in code.vtiger.com. What else can we do as a part of small extension
like 5$ for a yes lack of function. I agree with Alan in many ponits. If
you use vtiger CRM for your business and many companies use it as a core
software for business but don't want pay for implemetation, consulation
.. I don't understand it. Later if they have a problem, they contact us
to fix it, of course immediately. But this process is more
time-consuming because the client has wrong seeting (Roles, Profiles,
Sharing, ...) has added many data which must be transfered.

Matus.


Dňa 25. 4. 2017 o 14:12 iko napísal(a):

> There is no need to get defensive. Community has done a great job on getting
> Vtiger where it is now.
> But, as you say, being aware of the bugs and have patches is alpha and omega
> with this system.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://vtiger-crm.2324883.n4.nabble.com/Add-doc-relation-tp20693p20701.html
> Sent from the vtigercrm-developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.vtiger.com/
>


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iko
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Re: Add doc relation

iko
I am relatively new here. And my understanding of the Vtiger open source community is limited.
I assumed that open source is about sharing and making project stronger. But what are the real rules in Vtiger is not clear to me. For example, I fix a bug or lack of function which is quite critical (like in the add doc relation case). Then what I should be doing is thinking about how to make money on this fix?

Every time there is a question about bug fix or functionality improvement, there are mostly suggestions to buy extensions or buy services. Of course people are not interested in sharing if money is involved.

But it is fair, I see.

The only problem is that core Vtiger continues with the bugs and lack of functions. I understand that this is a complex problem also due to the Vtiger attitude to the community version. Fact, that merge requests are not merged is disturbing.  
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Re: Add doc relation

Alan Lord (News)
On 26/04/17 09:59, iko wrote:
> I am relatively new here. And my understanding of the Vtiger open source
> community is limited.
> I assumed that open source is about sharing and making project stronger. But
> what are the real rules in Vtiger is not clear to me. For example, I fix a
> bug or lack of function which is quite critical (like in the add doc
> relation case). Then what I should be doing is thinking about how to make
> money on this fix?

That's not quite right. Please see the new code.vtiger.com site where
there are quite a few of us who have submitted, and have had accepted,
quite large merge requests to fix bugs or add new features into vtiger
and plenty of small bugs too. The relationship between the "community"
and vtiger the company has never been fantastic, but, in my opinion it
has improved quite a bit over the past year or two. It takes a bit of
give and take on both sides.

The vtiger company obviously have their own agenda - they have to make
money and pay their staff and I know all too well how people get angry
and despondent about slow progress on some things, but, the fact is, the
vtiger open source product is used by tens of thousands of businesses
around the world and this provides for many companies like my own to
generate a decent living by delivering high-quality support services.
And that is pretty much how most Open Source models work.

> Every time there is a question about bug fix or functionality improvement,
> there are mostly suggestions to buy extensions or buy services. Of course
> people are not interested in sharing if money is involved.

I think "every time" is a bit of an exaggeration - there are plenty of
examples of people providing code snippets and/or other support on here.
But, please consider this: if it is cheaper and quicker to suggest
installing install a $10 extension rather than spend hours providing
[free] support via email then it makes sense to me :-)

> But it is fair, I see.
>
> The only problem is that core Vtiger continues with the bugs and lack of
> functions. I understand that this is a complex problem also due to the
> Vtiger attitude to the community version. Fact, that merge requests are not
> merged is disturbing.

See above.


Al


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iko
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Re: Add doc relation

iko
Hi Alan,

Thank you for your comments. I have used a lot of useful tips you give here in forum while I struggled to configure Vtiger.  There are many developers here that are working hard to make Vtiger better. Fact, that probably most of them are selling their extensions may be one of the drivers behind Vtiger.

On the other hand, if you look at YetiForce, I think their policy is closer to my understanding of open source.  It was an interesting discussion here https://github.com/YetiForceCompany/YetiForceCRM/issues/3772 about commercial extensions. You can see that YetiForce made free many of the expensive and not so expensive Vtiger extensions.